I am submitting this discussion string on a trial basis, to permit sincere individuals who have questions regarding scripture, to ask. Because, like many of yall I work an 8 to 5, Monday thru Friday, my response may or may not be immediate. To help me give answer to your inquiries, please make your questions as brief as possible and to the point. I do reserve the right to answer only those inquiries which I feel are asked with a sincere heart and are made in the spirit of learning. I will seek to be clear & understandable, but some questions may demand me giving considerable thought, research, and prayer to prior to my response. Thank you for your patience, and Shalom, in Messiah Yeshua!

Ya'akov

Piper,

I enjoy your postings and have been very informed by reading them.

I would like to know what is the basis of Messianic Judaism and what the beliefs are.

I have a q.The other day I was reading something about the ten commandments and they said that what we know as the ten commandments were not the original.It said that Mosses had broken one set and went back up the mt. and got a copy,which was placed in the Ark,but that the one he put in the Ark were different from what we know as the ten com.Have you ever heard such a thing ?

I like this, Piper.... Thanks for starting this thread, Shalom, Rubicon

SheepDog
Old Pro

I enjoy your postings and have been very informed by reading them.

I would like to know what is the basis of Messianic Judaism and what the beliefs are.
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SheepDog, to begin thank you for taking your time and letting me know you have found something useful in my past postings. Both Judaism and Christianity have their roots in the Middle-East and both religions have within their belief system, a concept of “Messiah”. In short, it is understood by both religions that the “Promise” of a Messiah was made in the Hebrew Tanach/Old Testament; however, debate arises as to the identity of that promised “Messiah”. So, in that way, “Messianic” could be expanded to include both Jew and Christian. In other words, the ground work is there. Even before the birth of Yeshua/Jesus, Jewish sages were busy with debate as to who this expected one would be. I say expected because the Prophet Daniel had earlier written, in Chapter 9:

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Given this prophecy, the Messiah was expected at a certain time, 483 years after the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem. Not only was he expected, there were signs leading up to his coming, as it written in Isaiah 40: 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. It is little wonder why masses of people flocked to the banks of the Jordan, not only did they expect the Messiah, they expected the “great and dreadful day of the L_rd” to be close at hand, given the prophecy of Malachi 4:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

In other words, they expected the Messiah would come at this time usher in the Messianic Age/Rule. It is interesting that tradition put Yochannan/John baptizing in the Jordon in the vicinity of where the Prophet Elijah was taken up into heaven. But it is understandable why many in those days were looking especially for Elijah, they just were not aware that the “great and dreadful day” would occur sometime in the distant future, and the Messiah would come at this point as the sacrificial “Lamb of G_d” and later return (at the great and dreadful day) as the Lion of Judah.

For a few hundred years after the resurrection of Yeshua, when Jewish believers were the most dominant and more numerous practitioners of the faith, at least in influence, their assemblies would have reflected more of a Jewish, Synagogish atmosphere. That begin to change with the increasing influx of Gentile believers into the faith and by 325 A.D. with the Council of Nice, Gentile believers with intent and purpose, struck out on their own, separating themselves from their Jewish counterparts. Whether the polarization was the result of “irreconcilable differences” in the form of issues relating to circumcision, or perhaps a struggle for power and influence, or over pagan influences in the growing movement, for whatever reason, the split was very nasty. Within the minutes of the Council of Nice, under Canon LII, it reads, “Usury and the base seeking of worldly gain is forbidden to the clergy, also conversation and fellowship with Jews.” And it was here, in Canon XXIX, that the holy day for Christians was changed to Sunday: As it reads, “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the L_rd’s Day (Sunday); and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” The above information is recorded in the Second Series of the writings of the Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, under the seven ecumenical councils, volume 14, 4th printing 2004.

Now, let’s jump ahead about 1,700 years, to today. The split still exist and for that matter, has grown wider, given the track record of Jewish persecution through the ages, even as recent at Hitler’s Nazi regime in the 1940’s. After the nation of Israel was born in 1948, I think the “Messianic” question became more of an issue that it had in years previous due to the return of the Jewish people back to their ancient homeland. Again the words of the Prophets echoed from the bema’s and the pulpits, perhaps in anticipation of the coming of Messiah. With this new energy, there begin to surface in the 1960’s, a movement of Jewish people who sought to re-establish ties with their own history, but most of all with their Messiah, whom they, and I recognized as Yeshua of Nazaret. I think what we see in this movement, is the restoration of Jewish influence, insight, and leadership that was lost over 1,700 years ago. Though mainstream Judaism, given party lines, considers anything that hint of “Messianic” as being Churchy, there are those that disagree, present party included. What is interesting is that there are Orthodox Jewish Rabbi’s, who believe in Yeshua. So, does that make them Messianic or Christian? No. It makes them Orthodox Rabbi’s who believe in Yeshua. The current Messianic movement, almost to the tee, eerily corresponds to our ancient counterparts, who we find, as in the days of Peter/Kepa and Paul/Rabbi Sha’ul, debating much the same issues as they. It is largely through these debates, learning/growing process that we understand what they were talking about, because we are experiencing it in the here and now. It is a movement that is still somewhat fluid, that is, still evolving, somewhat in its infant stages of growth. One word you will hear in giving definition to what I consider the most mature of Messianic communities is “Torah Observance”, to which I belong. We believe the Torah (1st five books of the Tanach/Old Testament) to be the absolute unchanging word of G_d, we seek to be obedient to it, to gain the blessings of G_d. It is the word that G_d gave Moses at Sinai, also know as the Mosaic Law, or the Written Law. We observe the Shabbat (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown), we eat a kosher diet, we observe the Feast as commanded by G_d, we seek to live by every word of it as Yeshua himself said, “Man shall not live by bread alone but by ‘every word’ that proceeds forth from the mouth of G_d.” We wear ZitZit’s, men are expected to take a lead in congregational worship, we dance, we take joy in life, we wear tallits, the chant the Shema, do all the things we believe our Father has directed us to do, as well as what Yeshua himself did via his example. Indeed, we have a long way to go in perfecting our walk, but there is joy and learning in the journey. Whether the top Jewish Messianic organizations will fall in line with the Messianic Torah Observant assemblies and eventually bestow full privileges on gentile believers willing to follow a Torah Observant lifestyle, (as most Torah Observant Congregations already do) is yet to be seen; given that the top Jewish Messianic Jewish organizations currently hold that Gentiles are not mandated to observe Torah, and in essence, to reap its blessings. Now, we do hold that the only route to salvation is by the blood of Yeshua; and torah observance, is proof of our obedience and desire to reap a closer relationship with the Father, as we also feel Yeshua taught. We feel there is one Torah, on Law, for Jew and Gentile alike. And like those as the base of Sinai when the law was given, we echo the words, “We will do as you (G_d) say”, as the children of Israel. My call is to both Jew and Gentile, to seek restoration between brothers. One has to start somewhere, and understanding is always a good place to begin. We to accept the Prophets, the Writings, and the Apostolic Writings/New Testament, but we view them through the eyes of 1st Century Jewish believers, with 21st Century Hindsight. That’s us in a nutshell. Where we are heading, I don’t know, perhaps out of the Messianic movement will come another which will continue to guard the commandments and hold to the testimony of Yeshua of Nazaret, then again, perhaps we are it, I don’t know.

But thank you for asking. Perhaps I was a bit more lengthy that I had initially desired to be, but your question was good, and perhaps others have wondered about our history, basis, and beliefs also.

Shalom in Messiah Yeshua,

Ya’akov

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Piper1,

Thank you, Piper.

I believe that we (and I consider myself a Gentile) are to observe the feasts and Shabbat as commanded. That is why I have formed the opinion that the various "Christian" holidays (Christmas, Easter, Sunday, ect.) are substitutes implanted by Satan to take away from the Father's sacred observances.

What are ZitZit's. tallits, Shema, and what is meant by a Kosher diet?

Mikenphiladelphia wrote:

I have a q. The other day I was reading something about the ten commandments and they said that what we know as the ten commandments were not the original. It said that Moses had broken one set and went back up the mt. and got a copy, which was placed in the Ark, but that the one he put in the Ark were different from what we know as the ten com. Have you ever heard such a thing?
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There was another “Ark” when Moses came down the mountain for a second time, but scripture said G_d did the writing on both the initial tablets as well as the second set, and I don’t think the writing would have been different.

One of my favorite movies has always been “The Ten Commandments”, and who can forget Charlton Heston coming down off the mountain holding those large tablets (big as tombstones), one tablet with one arm, and another tablet with the other. Hence the idea of having 5 Commandments written on one tables and 5 Commandments written on the other tablet. But, a close inspection of scripture don’t reveal that was the case. Let’s look at this particular verse, Exodus, Chapter 32:

15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

*Note the following: Moses had the two tables (tablets of stone written by G_d himself) in his “HAND”. Did not say “Hands”, it specifically said “hand”, singular! He had both tablets in one hand! Each tablet was written on “both” their sides. More than likely, the two tables were identical to each other. I think the reason Moses came down the mount with 2 tablets of stone identical to each other, is that it represents both of the parties involved in the “Covenant”. Now, even today, when agreements are made between parties, ALL PARTIES will receive a copy of the agreement. This “Covenant” was to be placed inside the “Ark of the Covenant”, as described below. Notice, and “they” shall make an ark, and overlay it with gold…..

Exodus 25
10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.
11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.

But, those tablets didn’t make it in the above awaiting Ark:

Exodus 32:
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

Now, Moses went up the mountain “again” but this time there were stipulations which did not exist the first time he went up. Notice the L_rd said (to Moses), Hew thee two tables of stones like unto the first (Moses was to hew them, or cut them out of the rock himself, but he was not to write on them.) Read verse 2, And I (G_d) will write on the tablets the words that were in the first tablets/tables which thou brakest.

Moses was also to make (2nd Ark) an ark of wood, no gold on this one. Why? Why couldn’t he just have gone up the mountain, and brought them down the same way, in his hand? Why did he have to build another ark?

KJV Deuteronomy 10:
1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

He put “both” tablets in the ark that he (Moses) had made, only after descending the mountain. Perhaps he placed it in the ark, at or near the very place he broke the first. Because of the corruption/sin of the people, G_d’s Word/Torah was rejected and broken, his people became separated from his love and protection. Because of our sin, that Word/Torah made flesh that dwelt among us was forsaken and broken by G_d himself upon our hearts of stone. When in repentance we again go back up that mountain, and present to him our stony hearts, “He” will write upon them with his own finger the Words/Torah of Life, dipped in the blood of our Messiah….the kingdom of G_d has indeed come upon us….

Luke 11:
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Words of the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazaret)

Shalom,

Ya’akov

I don't know of more than one actual quote of the Ten Commandments recorded in the Bible. Maybe I missed it somewhere.
I'm a major fan of Charlton Heston and I agree that the "Ten Commandment" was a fantastic production. When I was a kid, working as a projectionist, I ran that one for more than six months, at the Buck Theatre and one of the drive-ins did it for over a year. However, none I knew accepted it as one hundred percent Biblically accurate.
I wish I had the wisdom to discuss the Bible without the possibility of flaw, but I don't.

The original listing of the 10 Commandments is in Exodus 20. The second reference to them is in Deuteronomy 5.

Uri I have the 50th anniversary collection of the Ten Commandments with Heston. I LOVE THAT MOVIE!! As in most all films I am sure it was what I call "Hollywooded up." But for the most part, I think Cecil B. DeMille did a pretty good job at portraying it as close to the Bible as he could. The collection has a nice interview piece with DeMille and he explains his study of the Bible and lots more. If you're a Charlton fan, you will love the collection on DVD. It also has DeMille's original 1923 epic silent film version.

OOOPS, I got a little off topic. I am enjoying your posts Piper1 and learning a lot from them.

quote:

Originally posted by RUBICON:
I like this, Piper.... Thanks for starting this thread, Shalom, Rubicon

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Your most welcome! It's refreshing to see that people are still "connected" to all of scripture, and not just part of it...

Baruch HaShem...
Ya'akov

quote:

Originally posted by SheepDog:
Thank you, Piper.

I believe that we (and I consider myself a Gentile) are to observe the feasts and Shabbat as commanded. That is why I have formed the opinion that the various "Christian" holidays (Christmas, Easter, Sunday, ect.) are substitutes implanted by Satan to take away from the Father's sacred observances.
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SheepDog,
Your hitting quite close to the target. Like you, I also feel that anyone who calls on the Name of the G_d of Israel, should observe the seasonal feast (including the Shabbat) as he commands in the Torah. Any manmade holiday should not be "elevated" above the set times that G_d has previously established. There is nothing wrong with a man-made holiday, in fact there are two in Judaism, Purim and Chanukah, which is also known as the feast of Dedication. We find that even Yeshua observed the Feast of Dedication/Chanukah, as we read in John/Yochannan, Chapter 10: 22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Yeshua walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

I think the trouble with both Christmas and Easter is many who celebrate them, often treat them as G_d elevated and not man created. With me, there is also a personal distaste of the commercialistic associations, the rush, the rituals, the going to great lengths. I think it would serve us better if we made a priority of observing the set times / feast of G_d, as he Commanded, while de-emphasizing that which threatens to "replace" them. In America, can we name one "Season" which we observe that G_d Commanded? New Years, Valentines Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Halloween, Easter, and Christmas, to name a few. Then we have to ask, "Who has already changed the set times and seasons?" Yes, there are Pagan influences in Easter and Christmas, but I would rather call for reform, tone these things down, get rid of the extra weight and celebrate them, not putting them above the Commanded Feast of G_d.

What are ZitZit's. tallits, Shema, and what is meant by a Kosher diet?

ZitZits are fringes that:

37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

More than likely, it was this "fringe" that the woman with the issue of blood touched. Yeshua would have worn fringes. There are four strands of string that are attached to the corners of one's garment. Messianics do wear the blue thread interwoven into each of the 4 fringes. We look on it and are reminded of the Commandments.

A "Tallit" is a Prayer Shawl, on its corners are attached the ZitZit. On fringe on each corner.

The "Shema" (To Hear) is the prelude to the Greatest Commandment. "Hear O Israel, the L_rd our G_d, the L_rd is one.) It is often sung or chanted, not just in Messianic Synagogues, but in mainstream Jewish synagogues as well.

Kosher Diet-Just eating only those things G_d commanded, i.ee Leviticus, Chapter 11. I know Christianity has in the past provided interpretations which lead to the acceptance of these laws having been abolished, but being that we believe G_d cannot change, I think we can make a reasonable argument suggesting otherwise. I try not to get in spa matches with Christians over this issue, and as Paul, I just seek to encourage them to proceed at your own pace, and learn Torah as you go.

Thank you for asking..

Shalom,
Ya'akov

Thank you, Piper. Your answers are very repsectful and informative. I am going to yeild to others for a while.

Piper, what is a 'Reformed Jew'? What I mean is do you know their beliefs...

quote:

Originally posted by beammeup:
Piper, what is a 'Reformed Jew'? What I mean is do you know their beliefs...

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Within Judaism today, we find (3) three dominant branches: Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. In Orthodox circles you may find synagogues where men and women sit seperately, many may have two kitchens...(don't boil a kidd in its Mothers milk), Rabbi's are most certainly all men, and there are varying degrees of Orthodoxy even among the Orthodox. If you have ever witnessed the crowds at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, you may have seen these guys in black clothing, wearing a black hat with a curly stand of hair flowing along the area of the sideburn. These are perhaps among the most Orthodox, the Chasidic Jews who follow a very rigid religious lifestyle, including a Kosher diet, they are zealous for the Shabbat and Feast Observances, and their Rabbi's pull a lot of weight within their community.

On the other hand, Reform Judaism, which I think both the Temples in Meridian and Jackson are,would to the outside observer, not be as rigid. In Reform Judaism, the Rabbi may be a woman (as is the one here in Jackson), men and women may sit together during synagogue worship, and some may not eat Kosher. Their Rabbi's, as an essential part of people's lives, may be considered less intrusive than the Orthodox, they are firm but loyal to their belief system which includes focus on Talmid/Oral Law.

A Karite Jew is one who does not recognize the authority of the Oral Law, or the Talmid, but strictly adheres to the Law of Moses (Written Law) only.

At the time none of the above faiths proclaim a belief of Yeshua as the Messiah. That is not to say that there are not individual Jewish people, even Rabbi's operating within the framework of Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism, who do believe in Yeshua, many in fact do. But for the most part, Jewish believers in Yeshua who attend Jewish Synagogues, may have to hold that belief in secret, otherwise be deemed a Christian and asked to leave.

Then there is the Messianic Jew. The written Torah of Moses is observed, hence, Torah Observant. We consult the Talmid (Oral Law) to gain understanding and insight, but, as a rule, do not hold it writings in the same authority as the Law of Moses, which came from the finger of G_d himself. One Torah (Oral/Of men) value cannot be subsituted for another(Written/Of G_d)torah value. We hold that Yeshua of Nazaret is the promised Messiah of Israel, and will return to rule over Israel, and the world. We do not see conflicts in the what Yeshua did, and what the Torah/Moses says. Now, there may be Messianic Congregations who may or may not be Torah Observant, and some whose doctrines may even be more consistantly Christian than Jewish. And it may take a generation or two to build a Messianic Community, where the baggage of diverging Christian denominational thought will not be an issue.
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You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea if some Christian Congregation or School there in Meridian contacted the local Temple and asked the Rabbi if he would consider speaking to a group of adults or youth on Jewish History, the Holocaust, or some elements regarding his faith. Receive him well, listen to him, interact, if nothing else, you've gained a friend.

Shalom in Messiah Yeshua yall,

Ya'akov ben Mika'el