So you want to be under the Law of Moses?

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
For as many as are of the works of the law are under THE CURSE;

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (NKJV)
"But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that ALL THESE CURSES WILL COME UPON YOU AND OVERTAKE YOU: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. CURSED SHALL BE THE FRUIT OF YOUR BODY... Cursed shall you be WHEN YOU COME IN, and cursed shall you be WHEN YOU GO OUT. "THE LORD WILL SEND on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, UNTIL YOU ARE DESTROYED and UNTIL YOU PERISH quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. THE LORD WILL MAKE THE PLAGUE CLING TO YOU until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. THE LORD WILL STRIKE YOU with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you UNTIL YOU PERISH... The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you UNTIL YOU ARE DESTROYED. THE LORD WILL CAUSE you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. YOUR CARCASSES SHALL BE FOOD for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. THE LORD WILL STRIKE YOU with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. THE LORD WILL STRIKE YOU with MADNESS and BLINDNESS and confusion of heart. And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; YOU SHALL ONLY BE OPPRESSED and plundered continually, and NO ONE WILL SAVE YOU. You shall betroth a wife, but ANOTHER MAN WILL LIE WITH HER; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes ... YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS SHALL BE GIVEN TO ANOTHER PEOPLE, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and YOU SHALL ONLY BE OPPRESSED and crushed continually. So YOU SHALL BE DRIVEN MAD because of the sight which your eyes see. THE LORD WILL STRIKE YOU in the knees and on the legs with severe boils WHICH YOU CANNOT BE HEALED, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head... You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for THEY SHALL GO INTO CAPTIVITY... THE ALIEN WHO IS AMONG YOU SHALL RISE HIGHER AND HIGER ABOVE YOU, and you shall come down lower and lower. HE SHALL LEND TO YOU, but you shall not lend to him; HE SHALL BE THE HEAD, and you shall be the tail. Moreover ALL THESE CURSES SHALL COME UPON YOU and pursue and overtake you, UNTIL YOU ARE DESTROYED, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. And THEY SHALL BE UPON YOU FOR A SIGN and a wonder, and ON YOUR DESCENDANTS FOREVER. "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, therefore YOU SHALL SERVE YOUR ENEMIES, WHOM THE LORD WILL SEND AGAINST YOU, in HUNGER, in THIRST, in NAKEDNESS, and IN NEED OF EVERYTHING; and HE WILL PUT A YOKE OF IRON ON YOUR NECK UNTIL HE HAS DESTROYED YOU. THE LORD WILL BRING A NATION AGAINST YOU from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation WHOSE LANGUAGE YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND, a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, UNTIL YOU ARE DESTROYED; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, UNTIL THEY HAVE DESTROYED YOU... YOU SHALL EAT THE FRUIT OF YOUR OWN BODY, THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS ... The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 5 so that he will not give any of them THE FLESH OF HIS CHILDREN WHOM HE WILL EAT, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which YOUR ENEMY SHALL DISTRESS YOU AT ALL YOUR GATES. The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, HER PLACENTA which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for SHE WILL EAT THEM SECRETLY FOR LACK OF EVERYTHING in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, then THE LORD WILL BRING UPON YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS extraordinary plagues--great and prolonged plagues--and SERIOUS AND PROLONGED SICKNESSES... Moreover He will bring back on you ALL THE DISEASES OF EGYPT, of which you were afraid, and THEY SHALL CLING TO YOU. Also EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY PLAGUE, WHICH IS NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, will the Lord bring upon you UNTIL YOU ARE DESTROYED. And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so THE LORD WILL REJOICE OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU... "Then THE LORD WILL SCATTER YOU among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known--wood and stone. And among those nations YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there THE LORD WILL GIVE YOU A TREMBLING HEART, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. YOUR LIFE SHALL HANG IN DOUBT before you; YOU SHALL FEAR DAY AND NIGHT, AND HAVE NO ASSURANCE OF LIFE. In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. And THE LORD WILL TAKE YOU back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there YOU SHALL BE OFFERED FOR SALE TO YOUR ENEMIES as male and female slaves, BUT NO ONE WILL BUY YOU."

You missed the first 12 verses Ducky.

1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.

8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.

12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.


I think God loves obedience. I choose by the grace of God to obey Him to the best of my ability.

Nothing was perfect under the Law for the people.

Abraham and Job and many others did not live under the law and still made sacrifices.

As well as the other nations around the world in the earist days.

Make no mistake about it the law still exists and will as long as the universe exists:
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

We are in no way to teach disobedience to the law:

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus (Yeshua) has provided a way to fulfill the law:

Matt. 22: 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

By His sacrifice Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the law for those that follow Him;

Matt. 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Paul repeatedly renounced those that used his words to destroy the law while proclaiming that the law could not justify or redeem us:

Rom. 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Romans 6: 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


Paul taught the Galatians that the law of faith did not disagree with the Law of God;
Galatians 5:13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


The sacrifice of Christ has provided a way to fulfill the law through love for God and Love for each other. This is the law of Grace that is undeservingly bestowed upon those that have devoted themselves to Loving God and Loving each other. Grace is not in effect for those that do not recognize the intent of the law and walk in the spirit of God and the spirit of love for as John said "God is Love" and you cannot walk in the Spirit of God unless you walk in love which is the fulfillment of the law.
Love is how Christ fulfilled the Law.
Love is how Christ taught that the law and prophets could be fulfilled.
Love is how Christ said we would be able to know those that belong to him.
Walking in love is the only way to walk in the Spirit of God.
Those that do not walk in the Spirit of God are not under Grace but still under the law and haven't fulfilled the law and will be judged by the law.

Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as you love yourself. The law will be fulfilled and you will be under Grace.

Blessings.

Really this is basic sutff that the real Christian church should have passed by years ago. If you want to start getting some decient theology go to http://resources.christianity.com and listen to messages by the late Donald Barnhouse. Go through the entire Romans series and listen over and over and study the bible till you get it. Then ask God for the next line.

The prophet's seemed to believe that the issue was the heart more than the sacrifice or law.

Commandment numero uno...

We are judged by what the intentions of the heart are.

Jesus preaches this.

Any thoughts?

Won't copy and past verses this time.

Listen to the Barnhouse messages Dude, he spend a whole lifetime with God and was one of the best minds of the twenty centry and walked with God.

Of course it is a matter of the heart but the law was given for a purpose and Barnhouse will explain it much better than I can on this forum.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spiritoftruth:

This is the law of Grace that is undeservingly bestowed upon those that have devoted themselves to Loving God and Loving each other.

Do you not see the inconsistency in this statement above? Grace is a gift. It is undeserved. Thus it, by definition, is not given based on what one does ('those that have devoted.....'). The term 'law of Grace' makes no sense.

Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as you love yourself. The law will be fulfilled and you will be under Grace.

But that is not what the posters DB is arguing with are presenting. They are calling people to obey all 613 commandments of the OT.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LD,

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippi Dreamin:
Really this is basic sutff that the real Christian church should have passed by years ago. If you want to start getting some decient theology go to http://resources.christianity.com and listen to messages by the late Donald Barnhouse. Go through the entire Romans series and listen over and over and study the bible till you get it. Then ask God for the next line.

Agreed, The writer of Hebrews said (to me it is descriptive of today's church also which still is wrestling with the elementary issues of Christianity;

Heb. 5:11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Paul also spoke of the Corinthians in this way:

1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The church in general has become more secular and less understanding of Spiritual things that are of themselves the heart of Christianity.

PS thanks for the link you posted although parts of it did not display properly on my computer (this one has some extra security filters that prevent some links from displaying and totally block you tube etc. which is ok and still allows access to all educational and news sources.)

quote:

Originally posted by LD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spiritoftruth:


Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as you love yourself. The law will be fulfilled and you will be under Grace.

But that is not what the posters DB is arguing with are presenting. They are calling people to obey all 613 commandments of the OT.

I agree with what you say that Grace and the 613 laws of Judaeism are separate and are the difference in "Christianity" and "Judaeism".

Paul's advice to Timothy applies here and the argument becoming "useless" means that their mind is made up and won't change. My point is that all have sinned and are in need of forgiveness (whether under the law or claiming grace) which is only available through Christ.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

The law exists but is not our path to salvation.

Do you see the inconsistency in your earlier post? Not trying to be confrontational, just pointing something out.

quote:

Originally posted by LD:
But that is not what the posters DB is arguing with are presenting. They are calling people to obey all 613 commandments of the OT.

Galatians 5:3-4 (NKJV)
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that HE IS A DEBTOR TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I've seen many Christians only give people the NT.

Is it fair to leave out the first covenant?

quote:

Originally posted by Secrets:
I've seen many Christians only give people the NT.

Is it fair to leave out the first covenant?

Leave it out? Christians have a New Covenant in Jesus' Blood. It's the only way to salvation. If we must obey the Law then why do we need the New Covenant? The Book of Galatians uses STRONG language for those who want to be under the Law. Accursed, bewitched, fallen from grace, severed from Christ, children of the bondwoman, cast out with the bondwoman, under the curse, the Law is not based on faith, yoke of slavery, yoke of bondage. Clearly those who want to be under the Law are NOT SAVED. They will spend eternity in hell. God gave us Galatians to warn us in no uncertain terms. Those who ignore are in great peril. "Severed from Christ" means lost, not saved. They deny that they are trying to be justified by the Law, but that's exactly what they are doing. Christians are not under the Law. We are saved by grace through faith.

Romans 10:4 (NKJV)
For Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes.